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Teach Me

Ok, Well yesterday I played 8 hours. Which is about my target time. I start to get a little tired around 6 hours but can usually hold my game together for 8. That’s no breaks other then bathroom and a 5 min walk if needed. The nice part about the way I played yesterday was that I was very focused on playing well. I was able to make a lot of lay-downs that I think saved me a LOT of money. One may have been to a bluff, but it would have been very costly to call it down and it would have only been a semi-bluff so he would still have had outs to beat me. Anyway, I have a hand that you can all discuss. I think I have made up my mind but I would like some input.

Here is the background that may effect the play. I have not had a hand in a while and finally get QJ spades on the button. There is one limper and then a raiser. I respect the raise but for some foolish reason I call it. ( I would like to say, you should never call a raise like this with QJ. If you don’t respect his raise maybe you should 3 bet but calling is not the best play, folding probably is. ) Anyway the flop is Qd, 7d, 7s. The limper checks and the bettor bets. I still think I could be losing so I just smooth call, so does the limper. The Turn is a small blank. The limper checks and the raiser bets again. Now I am not sure if he would bet AK on the turn with how weak I have played the hand he may think its good, but I know he wont 3 bet if I raise him. I don’t think the limper would have a 7 that early and I want the Diamond draw to drop, maybe the AK also. So I raise the turn. Thinking I would need to call the river anyway, now ill just check it if either calls. Well the limper 3 bets, the raiser disgustedly folds, and I quickly fold behind him. The limper for some reason shows us 78h for his trips. I don’t think he plays a lot and don’t really respect the skill of his game. But I have also not been playing with him for more then an hour. So that’s just the background hand.

The very next hand I have KK. The same two players limp and I raise. The flop comes out Qh, 7c, 4c. He makes a noise like humph. Then he checks to me. So I make my bet and he insignificantly calls. The turn is a Qc. This would be known as a death card for my kings. It pairs the top pair, and makes the flush draw. But after he checks again I bet to protect against a 4th club on the river. I don’t have the King of clubs. He is about to throw in the 4 chips to call but with a very slight hesitation declares RAISE. Now I ponder this for a bit and all the hands I can think of him having are: Set on the flop, Weak Queen, Flopped a club draw, or he has Just the Ace of clubs. Now with out the Humph and Paused raise I would have folded quickly. Anyway in the end I determined that it was just one of those hands where I was not going to call two big bets and hope he didn’t catch another club or the Ace on the river. So I folded. But this time he DIDN’T show his hand. If he had had a full house, maybe the set, or even the flush, I think he would have showed it again. Instead he lightly placed the cards down so that the dealer could take them. That’s the part that still has me thinking.

Let me know what you all think.


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Comments (3)

I'm not a Limit player, but that play on the hands is pretty fishy. The humph and paused raise stuff all seem theatrical. I would take that as him trying to convince you to call. He didn't reraise you with top pair, though, so a Queen seems unlikely. Maybe the Queen of clubs gave him a flush. That would explain the paused raise. If he has a low flush and he thinks you may have the flush as well, he wants to play a low pot, but then he thinks back and remembers you raising preflop and betting the flop, so your hand doesn't play like a flush. He decides to raise because another club on the river could give you a bigger flush. On the other hand, an Ace 7 or 8 with one club could play like this. Now he's raising you with middle pair and a flush draw, trying to pick up your continuation bet if you missed with and AK or AJ, and if you have the AQ, he has a redraw to the flush. You can't assume he puts you on KK.

I can't fault the laydown here. I also wouldn't blame you for calling it down. This is a tough situation. I don't see re-raising him as being +EV because you can't raise him up enough at this point to keep him from going for his flush draw, and every other hand he could really have beats you.

Caveat - I'm usually wrong about this stuff. Particularly where Limit is concerned.


Yea I really thought that he either flopped two pair and either really thought it was funny or wanted it to look like he had nothing. My main reason for the lay-down is because in that spot I could save myself two big bets. In limit the goal is really fight as hard as possible to get just one extra bet or save one extra bet every hour. Here I could save two. With the number of hands that would beat me and the likely hood that even if I was ahead he would still have 12 outs to beat me maybe even 2 more if he had two pair. That was just not worth the risk. I find that in NL I would call there because at least if I hit a king I would get paid off big. Also a call there would be very hard for him to bluff at the river again. ( I don’t think I would have bet the turn in NL) In limit I can only get one, maybe two more bets. If we had not played the hand before then I would be 90% that I was losing. The hand before just brings so many new variables into play. The one that really bugs me is that I really think he would have shown any full house or trips.

My friends and I always say “if your not folding a winner now and then, your not playing well enough” I convinced myself for that day that it was a great lay-down so that I would play better. I find that if I get into a mood where I make lots of those calls I have a tough time winning. That way I can save those two bets for my check raise bluff

Well, the real question is whether this guy is an actor or not. If he is, then he has a good hand, since he made such a production of hrumphing. Sounds like he's an actor, since he slowplayed the 777 earlier, and since his hrumph seemed so exaggerated. My guess is that it was a good fold.

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